Episode 9: How do I overcome my inner voice saying "shouldn't I already have (blank) by now?"
For today's episode, we are excited to explore it with the question asker himself. Shea Evans has had a meandering career path, from snowboard instructor, to sushi chef, to photographer. And yet through all the successes in following his passions, he’s always left with the lingering question, “should I have (blank) by now?” in the back of his head.
In our conversation, we explore why we all ask this from time to time. How crying for something can stunt our happiness in the here and now, and even how it affected our dating lives in the past.
And make sure to tune in until the end of the episode to hear the question for next month. And if you have had the same personal experience and are interested in being a guest of that episode, OR if you have a short word of wisdom, write to us on the contact page on our Website or DM us on Instagram. And of course, please submit your questions there too.
Episode Resources:
Shea Evans: Instagram
Jackie Kai Ellis: Website / Instagram
More Good Media: Website / Instagram
You & I Podcast: Website
Resources on finding trusted professional help can be found here.
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Jackie: [00:00:00] Welcome to you and I, I'm Jackie Kai Ellis, and it's my genuine hope that through sharing our most vulnerable stories we know in the moments where it matters so much that we're actually not alone. It needs to be said, I'm not a professional, just someone with some personal experience to share. I do hope this is helpful, but as always take the advice that resonates and ignore what doesn't.
And don't hesitate to seek out professional help through a trusted source. We have some resources on our website. For this month's question, we're very excited to explore it with the asker himself. Shay Evans has had a meandering career path from snowboard instructor to sushi chef to photographer, and yet through all the successes in following his passions, He's always been [00:01:00] left with the lingering question in the back of his head.
Shouldn't I have blank by now? In our conversation, we explore why we all ask this question from time to time. How craving for something can stunt our happiness in the here and the now, and even how it affected our dating lives in the past. Here's my meandering exploration with Shay. Hi Shea, thank you so much for joining me today, and this is the first time that I'll actually be speaking with a question asker.
So thank you so much for having the bravery to come on and talk with me today. Oh,
Shea: thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here.
Jackie: We have actually known each other as Instagram friends for how many years?
Shea: Uh, like six, seven,
Jackie: maybe? Maybe even more. I feel like Could be more. It could be closer to like nine years.[00:02:00]
Whoa,
Shea: maybe so. Isn't that crazy? It
Jackie: is crazy. I know I started following you because your photography is amazing. It reminded me of like old Savoir magazine but not the new stuff like the really classic textural travel story type work that was really speaking to me at the time because I had this nostalgia for early 2000s photography that you would see in like Gourmet magazine.
I think that's how I first found you. That's
Shea: incredibly flattering because that's exactly what I was going for. And my dream was to work for a severer. Of course, it totally changed by the time that I got to where I am. But, um, yeah, that's exactly the look and I love the older severer stuff.
Jackie: Anyway, we, we totally digress.
And I think we just started chatting on Instagram and we are actually really similar. I think we're
Shea: similar in that we're both pretty introspective and we both take a thing maybe and look at it from a [00:03:00] lot of different angles. without even talking to other people about it, like just in our own heads are kind of examining this issue or this problem or this why.
And yeah, I do think we found a kind of kindred spirit in that, Oh, here's what I think about this object or this angle or, or how my own experience, you know, informed this kind of thing.
Jackie: Absolutely. And just a lot of analytical takes of emotions. And even this question is a very almost analytical way of asking it.
And
Shea: Maybe a willing to be open. I mean, I feel like obviously we had never met before, but, but our conversations were very kind of like Frank and, and just sort of like tear open your rib cage in a way. It just sort of like, well, this is what it is.
Jackie: And I've always appreciated conversations like that. I'm actually horrible at talking about the weather.
Same.
Shea: Small talk does not work for me.
Jackie: I wish I was one of those people that could do that at a cocktail party, but I'm always like, so what's your greatest fear? Like at a cocktail [00:04:00] party. People are like, I need to go get drunk. See you, bye. Right.
Shea: Yeah. One out of 20 people are like, yes. And the other 19 run away.
Yeah.
Jackie: Anywho, which is why I started the podcast. So I would have friends that want to talk about these topics. Okay. Let's get into your question. You say, I've been having trouble in the last year with patients. It's been a year of my inner voice stomping around going, shouldn't I already have blank by now.
In meditation, one of the exercises I'm doing a lot is examining any present emotion, almost like observing the filter with which I'm currently seeing the world. The act disempowers that filter in that moment, but then outside of meditation, I'm noticing my various filters here and there. And I've recently noticed that the, shouldn't I have already vibe that's been kicking around my head.
Feels exactly like the emotions I was having in my senior years of high school and college. This [00:05:00] feeling like I have to break out, break through, almost like a coil being depressed, like an end and a beginning together. It's a feeling that is simultaneously intense and utterly still. How can I overcome or manage this?
What a cool question. The shouldn't I haves already, explain what those might be and kind of the context of where this question comes from. Um,
Shea: you know, patience and impatience with my own career, with how long it's sort of taking me to make a kind of stable income, which is maybe too much to ask in a photography career.
I mean, I think anybody doing any kind of creative career would sort of laugh and be like, well, it's just always up and down and you have to be okay with it. But I think I've never been good at judging how long it was going to take to do something. When I first got into this, I was a sushi [00:06:00] chef for a really long time.
And then I decided I didn't want to do that anymore. And as I got into photography in my head, it was like, okay, It'll take about three years from the time that I start this to the time that I can live off this income. That sounds about right. And it took nine years. And so this latest feeling is like, it's just been really slow this year.
And is it, is it me? Is it something that I've done? Should I be making different work? Should I be talking to different people? You know, sort of like this, this kind of internal, like, what have I done wrong? to not be wherever this place is that I think I should be. But of course, that place is related to where I see other people.
There's only a relationship right between this person is there and shouldn't I be doing that? Or shouldn't I be making whatever income they're making when I, of course, I have no idea how they got there or what they're even making.
Jackie: When you think of the place that you want to [00:07:00] be, what are those things?
Is it the money? Is it The specific client that you want or what does that look like if you were to define the space that you should already be in right now? You know,
Shea: honestly, part of it is like, I don't even know. I just feel this kind of buzz, like it's not quite right. You know, this sort of energy of like, you know, I need to feel a little more comfortable.
I want to wake up a little bit more, I don't know, calm about the work that I'm making or something. Uh, but, but I don't know if I have an answer for that. And I think that's part of what makes it hard. If you have a sort of target, it's a little bit easier to kind of work backwards from that target and be like, okay, I just need to jump through X, Y, and Z hoop, and then I'll, I'll get there.
It's just a kind of uncomfortableness.
Jackie: And relate this back to the senior years of high school and college. What's the connection there for you?
Shea: I, so I was thinking about that this morning, [00:08:00] you know, and interestingly, when you met between the time that I asked the question and you asked me to do the podcast, I had actually totally forgotten about the coil part.
And had only remembered the like, how come I'm not X part, you know, like just the sort of negative part and not the kind of positive connotations of that question of like things are about to happen, which is how I felt when I asked it sort of felt like I'm on the verge. And how do I make the verge happen?
And so relating back to high school and college, those were both times where it was the end of something and I couldn't wait to just like leave my hometown and get to this other place and kind of start this experience that I had heard so much about and that my older friends were already having, but, you know, I couldn't start because it just, there's a time and a place.
And so it was this, this feeling of kind of like raw, you just couldn't wait for life to kind of begin. And same with, with college. Um, by the end of college, [00:09:00] I couldn't wait to move out West and snowboard. That's what I really wanted to do. Sort of like start my freedom, my adulthood, my, you know, the rest of my life.
But in exploring that this morning, the other thing that occurred to me was that I look back at my time senior year of high school and senior year of college with a real fondness, with a lot of nostalgia of that time. And that's an interesting perspective to come at this time with now, you know? How will I see this?
In another five years. Will I see this time now as a kind of nostalgia?
Jackie: I don't know. That's so interesting. I remember the time where I felt like this, which was strangely when I think from the outside in, everyone thought I already had everything. And it was when I was living in Paris by myself and I had sold my businesses and I just, I just needed to know what was next.
I don't know.
I don't know I remember being so dissatisfied [00:10:00] with where I was because I wasn't where I thought I should be. You know, I, I sold the business thinking that I would take six months off to travel. My other plan was, oh, during the six months of traveling, I'll obviously get very inspired. A new business idea will just drop into my head.
And then I'll start that near the end of the six months. And then I'll get going. And what I didn't realize was that it had become this process of going for the sake of going by the end of it. And that going was my identity. And so obviously, if that's the case, you're not in the space of gratitude, nor inspiration.
It's a space of fear and craving. Are you
Shea: good at celebrating when you achieve, like, obviously you're, you're goal oriented and you're good at achieving goals, but are you good at celebrating the goal that you've achieved? Because for me, it's like 24 hours done. What's next? I
Jackie: [00:11:00] am horrible. Yeah. Same. Oh my gosh, that is very interesting, super astute because I feel the same thing whenever someone compliments me on anything.
And I remember when I won an award recently, I was playing it down so badly. I was like, well, I'm not even going to come up with an acceptance speech cause I'll probably just go up and mumble my way through and just get off as quickly as I possibly can. And then I said to my friend. I'm realizing that this is not coming from a place of balance and true self worth and she said, I'm so glad that you finally got there because the rest of us look at you and we celebrate you all the time and yet you refuse to celebrate yourself.
And I just almost cried in that moment because I was like, Wow, our friends are so, they just, they just see us before we do sometimes. Why do you think we [00:12:00]
Shea: do that? I don't know, but I think it's really common. You know, certainly for me, like I shot a project this last summer, um, that was this hotel that was the culmination of kind of a lot of work.
And I was really proud of it for about two days. And then, you know, that was it. On to the next. I've already
Jackie: shot that. There is something in there because... I wonder if that stems from a feeling that we don't deserve to be celebrated, combined with a feeling of unworthiness that makes us feel like we're never there.
We're always having to get to the next place in order to feel good enough for something, whatever that might be. And so this adds to the feeling of, shouldn't I already have this by now, because if we just had that, then we would be there and we would feel worthy.
Shea: No, that resonates. I mean, I think, I don't know, you know, what your parents instilled in you, but definitely like where I was raised and the [00:13:00] culture that I was kind of raised in, it was, you don't talk yourself up.
You know, you don't brag, you just do your absolute best and sort of keep on going. And the people that brag, that's not an attribute to sort of work towards. And so that gets folded into not just not celebrating yourself when you've worked really hard for
Jackie: something. Okay. I want to read you something where it said that human beings are hardwired to be dissatisfied.
And when I went and researched it a little bit more, it actually linked back to Buddhism. The insight was that no matter what the mind experiences, it usually reacts with craving and craving always involves dissatisfaction. So when the mind experiences something distasteful, it craves to get rid of that irritation.
And when the mind experiences something good, it craves that the pleasure will always remain and will intensify. And therefore the mind is [00:14:00] always dissatisfied and restless. And so We're constantly toggling between the fear of trying to get rid of the pain and the fear of Trying to retain the good stuff So whether we're going through good things or bad things, we're constantly craving and this creates dissatisfaction There's a seed there that relates to the shouldn't I have X by now?
Shea: Yeah, definitely. I When I was thinking about it, you know, it's one thing to sort of have a goal and to acknowledge that I will experience some level of happiness if I achieve this goal. It could be in my career, it could be in my, my living situation, whatever it is to sort of have this in your head, but, and it's a really subtle shift to turn it into, I will only be happy if I can achieve this goal.
It's just one word. But as soon as you consciously or subconsciously sort of [00:15:00] agree to that, Oh, I'm only going to allow myself happiness, if then you just down into the black hole, you know?
Jackie: Yeah. And then what are we sacrificing for this idea? What present happiness are we actually sacrificing to hold on to a future goal that not only limits the potential of what our life could look like?
But it limits everything that we can possibly experience in the present moment, too. Yeah, because you get
Shea: so, sort of, myopic. You know, you just get focused, focused, focused on, on how have I not achieved this?
Jackie: Yeah. Someone responded on Instagram saying, So you get the thing that you want. Now what? And it was so fascinating because I, I do think that we create these goals for ourselves.
Yeah. And these expectations for ourselves in some future form, but we don't really think about, okay, [00:16:00] so you have it. And it sounds like for the both of us. Yeah. For the both of us, we'd be like, okay, cool, cool. Then the next thing. But we've probably
Shea: deeply, I mean, like, I have deeply bargained with the universe, you know, deeply sort of promised.
I promise I will well adjusted, you know, happy person. If you, you know, you Greater power, universe, whatever, can just allow me to achieve this thing. Going way back, I've broken so many promises to myself. But like, at first, all I wanted was to get paid to snowboard year round. And then, I did that. And as soon as I did it, didn't want to do that anymore.
And then all I wanted was to be sort of like, happy and responsible and working in a restaurant that, you know, fed all my different avenues. And it totally did. And I didn't want to do that anymore. And then all I wanted was to just be paid for photography and just work for myself. That's all I wanted.
And I promised that, you know, I wouldn't ask for anything else. And I was given that I worked for that, [00:17:00] I achieved it and immediately need something else. Now I need more money. Now I need more, a better place to live. Now I need a better clients, whatever that is, you know, yes, the satisfaction thing is, is
Jackie: never with us.
And do you think that you can even imagine a time where you'll be able to stop and go, no, no, no, enough with that. Let's just, let's just enjoy this because it is really hard to do. And I don't think that it's a natural state for almost anyone, but can you imagine yourself being there? No, but what I'll
Shea: say is what I've come around to is the, is looking at it from a different angle is that.
The, you know, the goals are there as kind of a way point and, and as a something to pull us in a direction we, you know, we learn from the goals, we learn whether or not we want things. I mean, I'm sure once you had the bakery, you really wanted the bakery and then maybe you got to a place where you [00:18:00] didn't want the bakery anymore or you learned that you wanted something different and you made your peace with wanting something different.
And so that, that goal wasn't the end all be all. And I think for all of my goals, I've learned from the goal, but the larger point is that It's the journey. It's the getting to the goal. It's the things that you learn along the way. It's the relationships you make along the way. It's what you've learned that informs your next journey.
There's a, um, photographer I know, Trevor Clark, super nice guy, wonderful photos. And his sort of slogan is the journey is the destination. And it's so hard to focus on that, but I think if I can start working towards just being okay with this is the journey that I'm on and no one else is on this journey and I just need to keep one foot in front of the other, it'll be
Jackie: easier.
Yeah, and even accepting that the feelings of shouldn't I have blank already is also a part of the journey. And that we [00:19:00] may question that for. a long time or sporadically for a long time, but that that's all a part of self discovery because I remember when I graduated the art school in Toronto and I remember having graduated with a general fine arts degree, which was worth basically toilet paper in terms of getting a job.
And, um, and of course getting a job for the daughter of an immigrant family is. utmost importance. I remember watching a girl that I knew walk across the stage to accept her graphic design degree, and I, inside me, just felt hot with envy. And remorse that I hadn't made more of myself, that I hadn't gotten a degree that I, my parents could be proud of me for.
My parents always [00:20:00] said, you're going to die starving. And I was like, Oh my God, am I going to die starving? And the other part of me was like, I don't get to die starving. I'll show you, you know, right. Yeah,
Shea: you can use it as fuel, depending, depending.
Jackie: I can eat this degree, this paper, I'm sure I can digest it.
No,
Shea: no, I mean, you can use your, your kind of stubbornness as a kind of fuel. I mean, you know, if you can turn that energy around.
Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. And I did. I thought to myself, there's something here. Like, so many people walked across that stage with degrees for all sorts of disciplines, but I was very envious of the graphic design degree specifically.
So I took that as a sign of, I'm going to go into graphic design. And I did. And then I created a very, very lovely eight year career out of being a graphic designer. And it was perfectly suited for me, but again, it didn't last for me and not to say that that's a bad thing. It lasted for the time that it was [00:21:00] supposed to last.
But what great learning that in those moments of shouldn't I have X by now? To be able to take that as just fuel to figure out, okay, well, it just means I, I want something else. And I'm going to go and get that thing. Why didn't
Shea: you do graphic design? It just was sort of how you started, you started in on another path.
And so that's what you finished with. I mean, why?
Jackie: Oh, I didn't even know that I wanted graphic design until that moment, actually, it had never even occurred to me. Also, I had gone into art school, wanting Oh, gosh, now I'm just remembering all these plans I had. This is amazing. I my plan was to go into art school and study photography.
Uh, major in photography and graduate by, I think people graduate by 22, right? Yeah, usually. Yeah. And I was going to get a job with National Geographic by the age of [00:22:00] 24 and publish my own anthology of works by 28.
Shea: What's quite thought out for a path that you didn't take at all.
Jackie: Oh yeah, that was, that was the plan.
That being said, I think the expectation that I had for myself created this burning sensation inside of me of where I wasn't compared to where I thought I should be.
Shea: I wonder about, does my kind of like heart or my soul or whatever you want to call that, does that kind of know better than what my brain thinks?
You know, my brain has got some plans for, I need to make this amount of money, I need to live in this kind of house. I don't know. And my heart, and maybe a little more solid of who I am, has some different kind of ideas. So I wonder if there was like a, for you, looking back now, there's like that disconnected, like your brain was saying, photographer, National Geographic, we'll do this, this, and this.
And your heart was like, I think you should try out a bunch of different things [00:23:00] and just see what happens. Yeah,
Jackie: absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, show talks about direction versus destination. And that destination is like prose, it's logic, whereas direction is like poetry, it's felt. Yeah, and that direction often takes this sense of traveling into the unknown without a map.
But destination is a dead end. Because we will only ever see that destination and our futures are then completely obliterated. Well, he says that the moment that you decide something in your future, it becomes your past. And so your future is in essence, unknowable and unmappable. And so once you map it, it becomes actually your present and your past.
Hmm. [00:24:00] And so it's really interesting because he does say that to live with direction requires you to live in harmony with your body and also with full trust in life.
Shea: Mm hmm. Wow, the path idea and the... Am I going the right way? Am I on the right way? Have you ever felt moments where, I can point to one moment where it sort of felt like this is wrong, this is not the right move, and I, I changed course, and I've felt other times where it's like, I'm in the right place.
Sort of sounds corny, but in my head I call it the golden light. It's like you just feel like you're just, you're in it, and, and then you notice that maybe you strayed from it or something like that, but it's. It's much more from the heart than it is from the brain.
Jackie: Yeah, there, there definitely hasn't been a map for my life.
And I would say for most of my career, nothing has made sense. [00:25:00] You know, I was doing quite well with design. I had my own, uh, little firm and everything was going, why would you stop that and just head off to Paris and study pastry for no reason, with no plan of a future bakery, really. And why would I, at the height of the bakery, sell it?
It makes no sense. And, this is so funny, a lot of people say when they find out that I'm, I'm searching for what I want to do with my life or whatever it is that I was searching for, which I really just stopped searching for at a certain point. But people would say, man, you've got such a great brand, you can do anything, why don't you just capitalize on that and make products and sell it?
And I'm like, that sounds great, but like, it doesn't feel right to me and I can't, it doesn't resonate at all. And I would just be doing it like washing dishes, like, let's just get this thing done because I'm not enjoying it. So I, I totally feel you on that. You
Shea: seem like you're like, okay, sort of like listening [00:26:00] to your inner compass for like, lack of a better word, like you, you have a strong connection to like, this feels right.
And I feel like one of the things about being a passionate person or following your passion is that a lot of people in your life will tell you that you're not doing the right thing. You know, when I moved out west to snowboard, people thought I was insane, except for a couple of people that got it. And similar to when I told my, you know, I had built these regulars for over a decade at the sushi bar when I told them, I can't wait to get out of here and I just want to do this other thing.
They thought that I was nuts and would tell me that it was never going to work. And I was never going to make any money at that. And why wouldn't I just do this thing? It seems safe. So how, how do you overcome that, those little negative, could be internal, could be external, it's not going to work, it's not going to happen.
Jackie: Yeah. I mean, I am my own worst critic. And so anything that anyone's ever said to me in terms of putting me down or telling me that something's not going to work, I've already said it to [00:27:00] myself a hundred times. Oh, so true.
Shea: Oh, that's a good point.
Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. And so I've already worked through all the Oh, well, what if this fails?
And what if, and like, who's going to listen to me and who's going to want a croissant from some Chinese Canadian that went to Paris for like three months to study. And at the end of the day, I'm, if I'm like, no, it's still worth it. And I just want to do it. Even if I fail, like, I don't care how this goes.
I just need to do it because it needs to come out of my body. Then I'm like, I, I've told myself it's not going to work a hundred times before anyone's ever said anything to me. Right.
Shea: Yeah. I, that's something that never occurred to me, but that's true. Like by the time it's sort of vocalized for you and out in the world, you've already lived with it for like three years inside your own head.
Yeah. Same. And I don't think I noticed before in my other jobs, but certainly photography, I noticed how vicious my internal voice is. I mean, just really mean. And it only [00:28:00] occurred to me recently. That, uh, like a good litmus test for whether or not I should listen to it is let me write out this thing that I'm saying about myself and then ask, would I say this to someone that I care about?
Or even to a stranger? Would I say this same thing? You're never going to make it. This is never going to work. Nobody likes working with you. Like, would you say that out loud to somebody? And if the answer is no, then maybe I shouldn't say it to myself. Not only would you not say it, but you wouldn't think it.
You wouldn't believe it. No. You know, about them. And so, figuring out how to not believe that about yourself, you know, how to sort of tune that voice out, that mean voice, is really important.
Jackie: Yeah, and I did read once that these voices that we have are actually the very first voices that we hear of criticism and they actually are programmed into our brains.
And so our parents with the best of intentions, you know, trying to keep us safe, trying to keep us from falling off tall things and [00:29:00] impaling ourselves on playground equipment are saying, don't do that. You're going to get hurt. Stop running so fast. Don't climb up onto that top thing. You're going to fall down.
These end up being the messages with which we end up living our lives and these messages direct our lives. Which is really also like a good way to step back from that and say, Oh yeah, that's right. They weren't talking about these huge life decisions. They were talking about, Hey, look both ways before you cross the street.
Shea: And even, I don't know why this jogged this memory, but I was talking to somebody that he had decided he didn't want to have kids at the age of 11. He had decided that. And it only occurred to him in his 30s that he was being kind of governed by his 11 year old brain. And That have made that decision. Oh my
Jackie: gosh, that's so interesting.
Shea: And it's sort of scary because you're like, Oh, how many other things are, you know, is my 15 year old self controlling? Or my... My 20 year [00:30:00] old self that has made a judgment that I just went
Jackie: with. Totally. And to bring it back to the shouldn't I have blank by now, these decisions that we make when we're 11, you know, by the age of X, I'm going to be this person or I'm going to have this.
When we're 11, we think 40 is like pretty much you're on your way to dying.
Shea: Yeah, it's almost over. Pack it up. Exactly.
Jackie: Like, there was one Instagram person that did say something that I hadn't thought about prior to her mentioning it, but she said, especially as women, we're told that we're supposed to have had children by a certain point, and we do have a biological clock, and we're also told by society that we're not really functioning humans without children, and that there's something wrong with us without children, and so not only the should I have X by now.
Does it come from an internal thing? But it's also a [00:31:00] societal, shouldn't I have X by now? I mean, do you feel like your Expectations of yourself are at all influenced by culture? Definitely,
Shea: um, for whatever reason I thought that by 30, I would have it all figured out by 30 I will have a career. I didn't know what that meant at all, but in my brain, you know, I'll have a career I will be working towards a house, or I'll have a house, and I'll, I'll sort of like, have two and a half kids, whatever the, you know, average is.
I, I just thought that those things would kind of appear by 30, and I really was shattered at 30 when none of that worked out, and it was a real kind of internal thing. Even though logically, of course I didn't have any of those things, because I didn't make any moves towards any of those things. But then I, at 30, I really did think about, okay, what do I want?
You know, it turns out I do want a life that's more unconventional, like I've been living the last 10 years, you know, and that gets back around to that, like brain versus [00:32:00] heart thing, you know, is how do I align those things? How do you trust listening to your heart more and being okay with who you are versus what other people want to put you in, you know?
Yeah.
Jackie: And also as you're talking, you know, your question is a little bit misleading in a sense. Because it paints a picture of someone who's lived a conventional life and shouldn't I have the white picket fence by now and shouldn't I have the, you know, but you are so fiercely someone who decides exactly how you want your life to look and then you do it.
And that maybe we might not want the things that we used to want, but that is also okay. And it doesn't mean that there's a should in there, it just means that a part of us is evolving into the next direction, not destination. In a moment, Shay and I continue exploring why we all search for the big next thing, and even the one thing we want to do before we die.
And don't forget to [00:33:00] tune in later, where we'll share next month's question, so that if the question resonates and you would like to be a part of that episode, you can send us your story or your words of wisdom. But first, a word from our non profit partner. In each episode, we feature a non profit chosen by our last guest, Natasha Mousselet.
It's a small thanks to them, and to our community. Global Pearls believes sustainable development for impoverished communities must stem from grassroots efforts, so they identify and empower local changemakers who have the passion and resourcefulness to lead meaningful change. Projects are designed around their passions, which might be things like educating child labourers in Guatemala, curing low caste villagers of intestinal worms in India.
Fighting child marriage in Kenya, or transitioning slash and burn agriculture in old growth forests of Cameroon to [00:34:00] sustainable techniques, just to name a few. Global Pearls partners and teams are also in position to respond to local crises. For example, in Morocco, our partners prepared thousands of meals for earthquake victims and are helping families in 23 of the hardest hit villages to re establish their lives.
For more information or to learn how to get involved, visit globalpearls. org. Now back to our conversation.
Shea: Yeah, there is a kind of like grief with a, like a goal that's been achieved in the past. And then like, Oh, did you feel any grief when you sold the bakery? Like that you weren't expecting? Like you just thought like, I'll sell it and it'll be okay.
And even though it might've been the right thing, was there still a kind of moment of like, Oh, that's not me anymore.
Jackie: Yeah, I definitely had moments of grief throughout because, oh my gosh, it's so funny, I haven't thought about this stuff in so long. [00:35:00] Um, I remember when I first started it, the dream that I had was that it would be this tiny corner bakery that, you know, a handful of people would know about.
And I thought to myself that I would always be struggling to get the name of this thing out. I actually remember thinking, Okay, when it's really slow, I'm going to get a sandwich board and wear it and go out to the corner and like wave down cars like, like those people that wave the one day sale only like I thought I would have to do that for the bakery.
And. I thought that I would have so few customers that I would know everybody's name and that I would remember four year old so and so's birthday is this day and I would bake them a special favorite cake for them. This was the, the vision that I had for the bakery before I started it. And when it was an unexpected success, even before I opened the doors, [00:36:00] I had this moment months after I opened it and I caught my breath.
And I actually cried for the vision that never came to pass because I knew that it's, it's no longer who I am. I've evolved from that person and maybe it was a falsely placed expectation as well. That's another case for trusting the blank map because we know so little and these moments are in some ways.
meant to be there to push us into the places that we're hesitating to go. Even
Shea: starting in photography, when I got divorced, I was so Shattered. And the last thing that my ex and I had was making food together. And so, it was like the last connection. And so, when I got divorced and started making meals alone, it was this acknowledgement of like, [00:37:00] this truly is over.
And so just the act of sort of eating alone was heartbreaking. And I started just taking pictures of my food and sending it to my friends like, well, this is what I, the recipe that I made this week, you know, trying to sort of get out of it. And then that led into something and led into something and led into something.
And, you know, now I take pictures of food for a living.
Jackie: So many beautiful directions start from places of brokenness.
Shea: In, in looking back at my life, I realized that all of the passions that I've had have. Been things that allow for the world to fall away. When I started snowboarding in high school at a moment where there was no difference between me and the board and the bindings and the boots and the mountain and the snow, like everything was just, and it was, it was insane.
And I just wanted to chase that and just experience that feeling of kind of like one. And same with photography. When I'm really [00:38:00] shooting, I am just in it. I'm just in the moment. I only see what is happening and I'm everything else. Nothing matters. And so I'm always chasing that. I don't know if that's a good thing to chase, but that's what I'm always chasing.
Jackie: Yeah, I have to say I'm the same way. And I think it's. Oh man, it's so hard to say that it's not a good thing because it feels so good in the moment. And I do feel like in those moments I am connected to something so much bigger than just me. But I do think that that's what caused so much suffering in the years after I sold the bakery is because I was chasing the next that feeling.
I was like a that feeling junkie. And I became dissatisfied with the fact that I wasn't feeling it all the time. Right. And it's like, shouldn't I have that feeling by now? But the thing is, [00:39:00] the moment we create that to be the destination, it does disappear.
Shea: Yeah. You can't get there if you try. No. Um, yeah.
You can't get into that flow state. And also, like, paradoxically, the better that you get at something. Sometimes you get past this peak where you can't get back into it because you're so, I mean, I'm not saying I'm an amazing snowboarder, but I'm so comfortable on a snowboard that I can think about anything else.
I can think about other stuff. I can do my whole anxiety dance while I'm snowboarding down something that's dangerous. And that's a bummer. I can't be in the moment there anymore.
Jackie: Like you've gotten too used to it. Yeah. If you brush your teeth enough, brushing your teeth will be come. Very boring, like brushing your teeth.
Who is thinking about the present moment when they're brushing their teeth other than like Eckhart Tolle? Our brains are not physically created to be so present. We, we tune things [00:40:00] out as a self defense mechanism or else we would overload. Do you think that we overthink? Yes.
Okay, well that was that question. Cool. No, I mean, I've known you for however many years now nine years. And I feel like This idea of moving to the next level of your career has been occupying such a huge space in your mind. Mm hmm. And I do feel like this is almost never ending in some ways, which all of our preoccupations are never ending because our brains have ways of spawning roots.
Yeah. The deeper the roots go, the more roots grow. Do you think that by wanting that thing so badly, it actually kicks the thing further down the [00:41:00] road.
Shea: Yes, I do. It feels similar to when I was single, when like you just, you just want somebody that you love and that's going to love you. And when you're in that place and you want it sort of so badly, It's so far away.
I mean, I only met my girlfriend when I had really truly sort of like given up that search and was just like, I am just going to focus on my career. This is a waste of my time. I, you know, maybe I had a good run and, you know, I'm just going to work and that's what I'm going to do. And it was like, within a year, she was like there.
And probably if I was in the other space. It would not have worked out. She would not have shown up. And so, yeah, it's a weird, it's a good point. You almost have to be in a headspace of, well, I mean, it's a headspace of happy with who you are and happy with where you are for these other opportunities to come, which sounds crazy because it should be the opposite, but things kind of appear when you're in
Jackie: balance and gratitude [00:42:00] when we're just happy with the way things are.
And we're genuinely grateful for what is. We are much freer to move in all directions. Oh gosh, our minds are our shackles. You know, once we want something so badly, we're actually shackling ourselves to, to the ground. And we're giving ourselves a five foot chain to just basically explore in, in the radius around the place that we've shackled ourselves to.
But once we say like, we don't actually care, the shackle goes away. And I think that there is that energy that happens when we want something so badly that that thing keeps on being repelled. further and further and further away. And so like, the sweet spot is to want something, work for it, but never hold onto it so tightly that our lives or our [00:43:00] happiness is ever dependent on it.
And going for it never takes away from the gratitude for what we already have in the present moment. .
Shea: It's exactly what you were talking about with Buddhism, which is like the desire is where the suffering sort of like comes from. Mm-hmm. . And so if you can find yourself in a place to be desireless, and it's definitely the way that a lot of relationships work out.
It's like people are not into each other right off the bat. They are kind of desireless. They have their own thing, their own power.
Jackie: Yeah. And I, I do remember having that same thing when I was dating because. My career and everything was just going fine. I had everything I wanted. I didn't need anything else other than a relationship.
I felt like that's the one place in my life that I had not yet conquered. And I was like, you know, I'm perfectly dateable. Like, why is this thing not happening for me? Like, I don't [00:44:00] get it. And I remember I was with a friend and we asked each other, What's one thing you want to experience before you die?
And she just said, Nothing. I actually feel really happy with my life. Like, I don't need to experience anything more. Yeah, I know you look shocked. She's a wise woman. That one. And what I said was, I want to experience the kind of love where, you know, you sit on a couch on a Friday night. Watch movies and you just burp and fart if you want to like that kind of love I want that that level of comfort.
Yeah, where you're not trying to impress each other anymore You just know that you love each other and that was the only thing I wanted to experience before I died again And you would not believe the kinds of guys I was dating in order to find this Let's just say it was not a [00:45:00] pretty picture, because I was very desperate to like, experience this before I died.
Shea: Now, have you checked that box? Like...
Jackie: Yes, I've checked it. Okay,
Shea: but the question is, have you now made a new goal? Because I feel like... You made a bargain with yourself that this is, I just need to experience this one thing, but now you're on to the next, whatever the next before you die thing is probably.
Yeah, I
Jackie: mean, that's a good question. What do you want to experience before you die?
Shea: Um, I mean, limitless. I, we could go for hours and the amount of stuff that I would like to, I don't even know if I could choose. Like, you're right, I have really built a life that I wanted to live, and so I have done. a lot of the things that I think a lot of people are still on their bucket lists I've checked off.
So I want to acknowledge that. Um, just, just new, new experiences. There's never going to be [00:46:00] enough. There's never going to be one. And that gets back around to like, it's the, the point is like the journey. The point is the road and, and just being on it and being thankful that we're on it.
Jackie: And thankful that we have the privilege to, to decide what road we're on.
That to me is, is always humbling when I think about all the people that actually just don't have a choice to create their lives. Yeah. And we can choose anything and yet most of the time we're thinking about what we don't have instead of what we have, which is so crazy. Oh my gosh, we're so privileged.
Yeah.
Shea: Yeah. Yeah. When I think. Just sort of strategically about my career, I think about, like, well, I should just move to a major city or something like that. Like, that would solve this problem, but it would cause all of these other problems that I don't currently have. You know, I currently have a wonderful [00:47:00] relationship.
I don't know if she would want to move to another city. I don't think she would. I would lose snowboarding and mountain biking, all of my kind of, like, outdoorsy activities. I would lose all of, all of the things that I'm currently taking for granted, myopically focusing on the one thing that I don't have.
Jackie: Mm hmm. And so the question then is, really, we want those things, but we don't want them that bad. Right. Yeah. Because we want these other things more. Yeah, that we might
Shea: already have.
Jackie: Yeah. And so we are making choices, whether they're conscious or unconscious. But to focus on not having the thing that we already chose not to have is also a suffering maker.
Yeah. I think about Now, what is one thing I want to experience before I die? And I also think that this is maybe something I've become a little bit too obsessed about, and that it will create problems if I don't let go a little bit, is that I want to make sure that [00:48:00] I don't traumatize my child.
Shea: Like that's, well that's a lot of pressure. That's like in every moment you're thinking like, just don't traumatize him, just don't.
Jackie: And I'm so human, I'm so flawed. I, I cannot possibly do this perfectly. And yet I have this child that's looking to me. to protect him. And I'm like, how do I protect this child from me?
I am the monster here. And so I think it haunts me a little bit, this, this desire to protect him from that, that child parent trauma that we all experience, like every single person, like since the beginning of time. Yeah. I need to let go of that because I think it's going to create its own trauma if I don't.
So.
Shea: Yeah, if you can pare it back to [00:49:00] like, just loving him for who he is and for the decisions that in trying to be as supportive as you can, you can just pare it back to that. Might be a little more realistic,
Jackie: accomplishable. I mean, everybody's been saying to me, Jackie, just, just chill out. It's okay. And I'm like, but the next thing I say could be the thing that costs him like.
5, 000 in therapy 20 years from now?
Shea: No, but that's exactly how I would be. It's exactly how I would be too. I can totally relate. I can totally
Jackie: relate. I mean, I'm sure all overthinkers will overthink this because it is, I think, one of the, the hardest things I've ever done to not overthink about is, is raising a child.
But, um, so normally at the end of an interview, I would say, what advice would you give to the asker? But in this case, it's you. So, after our conversation, and after, I'm sure, you are [00:50:00] so wise, I genuinely think that you asked this question, but you already know like five answers to it in the back of your head.
You just wanted to know if I had another perspective that you hadn't thought about, probably. Yes, yes. So, what advice would you give to yourself? After this little exploration of the question that you had submitted.
Shea: Well, I mean, the big one is what you're talking about as a parent is a little bit of like, let go, you know, just, just loosen up the grip a little bit.
Um, you know, it's, it's okay to, to have things be a little bit out of my control. Cause that's part of it too. Right. You just want to have a control or all these things. And. When we both look back at our lives, I'm sure there's a couple of things that were out of our control that led to amazing things.
And so acknowledge it's okay for not every moment to be planned out. Um, And that things kind of unfold in [00:51:00] time. And whenever anybody says something like everything happens for a reason, I do want to sort of like punch them in the face sometimes, but it is true. There are so many things that, that's just sort of unfold for a reason.
Um, and sort of like trusting that, that, that kind of universal energy or inertia.
Jackie: I, I definitely would say that the things that I've learned from this conversation are gratitude. Just gratitude for whatever is because we don't know what it's supposed to be. And there, there is no supposed to be because it's, it just is whatever it is.
It's like our minds have created a should, but is that real? Like, should it be another way? Right. Like who decided that? And how are you so sure? Right. In the moment we say should or [00:52:00] could, we're already taking ourselves out of the state of know what is, is actually really great. My imperfection as a mother is exactly what Kai needs.
And it shouldn't be different. Thank you so much for being open to talking about this and exploring this with me and also just so enjoyed this conversation and how it reflects on the many text conversations we've had over the years. I just really appreciate that. You've always been a great sounding board.
To you who have asked yourself the exact same question, shouldn't I already have blank by now? What I say to you will be short, but no less true. No, you shouldn't. You are [00:53:00] exactly where you're supposed to be. Because simply, It is where you are. Shoulds or coulds don't exist but in our imaginations. The places where a million what ifs lie, but none of those are reality.
And who's to say what should have or could have been? Who can stand far back enough to see the perspective of everything from the beginning of time? If we are to ask this question, let it only be to examine the choices we've already made, consciously or unconsciously, just to be sure we are indeed choosing what our heart desires at its deepest, narrowest point.
If we are to ask this question, let the contrast of where we are and where we expected ourselves to be only help us question what it is we truly want. In the moments we compare our lives to seemingly better ones. Let us walk [00:54:00] that path in our minds to their completion and make one of two decisions to go and intentionally create the parts of that life we actually desire or realize that the decisions we've already made are the ones we choose over and over again.
If we feel pressure to be or do something we think we're supposed to be or do, let us find quiet places to hear the direction of our own voice and not the destination of others. All this is hard to do. I'm no different. I struggle with this insatiable craving for everything but what is. But embracing the experience of life at its own pace, with time for meandering exploration, and space for being surprised, throwing out the map of shoulds as we venture into the unknown of our futures.
As hard as it is to do, it can also feel as natural as falling [00:55:00] leaves in autumn. And so, hopefully, we can make some space to enjoy what is, and not waste our energy asking. If the tree shouldn't already have new leaves by now. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and thank you so much Shea for being our first ever asker on the podcast.
It was such a pleasure to explore your question with you, and for those of you out there who can relate, who have asked yourselves the same questions. I really hope you got something helpful out of this. If anything, just know that you're not alone. You see, we all struggle. We all mourn, yearn, question, laugh, and cry.
No matter our age, background, or titles. At our core, we're all not so different, you and I. And now for next month's question. They write, How does one just move on emotionally [00:56:00] after a lot of trauma and grief? I'm in therapy. I started this month, but just remembering all the trauma from the past is a lot. I miss my dear late older sister.
Tuesday will be the one year anniversary of her funeral. My whole body is just mentally and physically drained out. I just want to remember the good. Thank you so much for your question. If you feel inspired to respond to this asker and are interested in being a guest of this episode, or if you have a short word of wisdom for them, Write to us on the contact page on and I podcast.com or dmm us on Instagram at UN I dot podcast.
And of course, as always, please submit your questions there too. They're completely anonymous. If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe to our channel, which helps others who might be interested find us. [00:57:00] And feel free to share this episode with someone who may find it helpful as well. Thank you so much for joining me today.
I'm Jackie Kai Ellis, and here are some words of wisdom. Shouldn't I already have? When Jackie shared this question to our readers recently, a voice in my head returned. I've come to a point in my life where I'm about to turn 50 and I've found myself at an employment crossroads. Post pandemic has found me both in spiritual and financial hardship.
Separated from family by a border and a business at the mercy of a volatile, commercial real estate market, I need to make some big girl decisions. I feel like I'm back in my thirties, where the pressure to decide and make grandiose steps towards adulthood are expected. Should I buy a house? Do I want to get married?
Do I want children? Do I continue this young and fun lifestyle that is proving more and more unfulfilling? Luckily one day, an epiphany, a light bulb moment. I can just say [00:58:00] no, not yet. I began handing out no's like candy. My life began to take an empowering turn. The exercise had helped me navigate and focus on what I wanted, not what society had expected of me.
Once I started living out loud and voicing my choices, I realized everyone was experiencing the same pressure, and that we were all just kind of winging it in silence. It's not to say having goals in a plan is a bad thing. On the contrary, trying to live up to someone else's can be soul crushing. I knew, I know, the goalpost was always going to be in motion.
You reach one expectation, there is another right behind it. But now I had some skills to navigate the field going forward. Fortunately, with the biggies behind me, the internal chirping rarely rears its head. But as I enter another challenging phase of my life, I trust that I have the toolbox to navigate the pressure with far less guilt and the wisdom to know not to compare myself to others.
I understand we're all still just winging it, and that the question still [00:59:00] remains, shouldn't I already? Well, maybe. No? Either way, it's going to be okay. When I first read your question, I was thinking specifically about a biological clock issue, especially after first marriage and divorce, all while relentlessly chasing a career and life.
goals and aspirations. Super tall order. Then when I went back and read it, what really resonated with me was the shouldn't I have already vibe that's been kicking around my head, feels exactly like the emotions I was having in my senior years of high school and college. This feeling like I have to break out.
I have to tell you the second time that I read it, I was moved even more because I identify with that feeling at the end of a major, coming toward the end of a major milestone or a major [01:00:00] phase of our lives. So if I'm feeling like I should be doing more or achieving more, I like to think of it as my inner knowing, as my subconscious that is guiding me and calling me to grow.
That lack of patience, I feel it deeply and I consider it to be my intuition, encouraging me to grow and seek out new opportunities. You're not alone. Many of us feel this way and I deeply identify with this. Both in terms of wondering when my next husband will walk, come along and whether or not I'll be able to fulfill that dream of having a happy home and a family that I create, um, and also this ongoing inner timing mechanism that keeps me striving for more, keeps me going to, to do [01:01:00] more and it, that alarm goes off for me.
Right around every four years and it's ringing pretty hard right now. You're not alone. I see you. I hear you. I feel you. This episode was produced and edited by More Good Media.