Episode 19: You give your all, you burn out, you resign, and your boss could care less. How do you restart fresh?
Tune in as Jackie explores the listener question, "You give your all, you burn out, you resign, and your boss could care less. How do you restart fresh?"
Jackie and guest, Kim Budziak, dive into burnout, its roots in self-worth, how to heal from the emotional loss that comes from career and how to start new.
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We hope that you get something helpful out of this conversation. If anything, know that you’re not alone. You see, we all struggle, mourn, yearn, question, laugh and cry. No matter our age, background, or titles, at our core, we are all not so different, You & I.
Make sure to listen until the end to hear the question we will be diving into on the next episode. And if you feel inspired to respond to this asker and are interested in being a guest of this episode, or if you have a short word of wisdom for them, write to us on the contact page on youandipodcast.com or DM us on Instagram at @youandi.podcast.
Episode Resources:
Jackie Kai Ellis: Website / Instagram
Northwest Immigrant Rights Project: Website / Instagram
You & I Podcast: Website / Instagram
Resources on finding trusted professional help can be found here.
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The following transcript was automatically generated. Please be aware that it may contain errors. Thank you for your understanding.
Welcome to You and I.
I'm Jackie Kai Ellis and it's my genuine hope that through sharing our most vulnerable stories we know, in the moments where it matters so much, that we're actually not alone. It needs to be said, I'm not a professional, just someone with some personal experience to share. I do hope this is helpful, but as always, take the advice that resonates and ignore what it doesn't. And don't hesitate to seek out professional help through trusted source.
We have resources on our website. I chose this month's question because I think we often undermine the pain and disappointment that can come from our workplaces. Because it's, quote, just work, we might think we don't have the right to feel as deeply as we do when things don't work out. But we feel deeply when we care deeply and it's so obvious this asker does.
They write, you give your all, you burn out, you resign, and your boss could care less. How do you restart fresh? This question was submitted through Instagram, but we keep all of our askers anonymous. So I've decided to name you Fresh Start. When I posted this question online, Kim Budziak responded, well, I got a rebound job, short term, lots of perks, anything to put myself first. Then moved on. It was such a pragmatic response that I knew she must have gone through something very similar. Here is my conversation with Kim.
Hi Kim. Thank you so, so much for joining me today. And I apologize for my voice because I'm kind of sick. And so I sound like a bit froggy, but I swear I'm not on the verge of crying or anything. But thank you so much for coming and sharing your story with us today. Thanks for having me.
Okay. So this question, I've had personal experience with this too. You give your all, you burn out, you resign, and your boss could care less. How do you restart Fresh? How does this feel to you to read this or hear this question?
Speaker 2: I have so much empathy for the person who asked this question. I've been through this exact situation. It brings up a lot of feelings for me around self-worth and what that means. But also, I did do something quite practical to bring myself out of that situation. So I'm excited to share that as well.
Speaker 1: So give us a little bit of context. Like what have you had this happen more than once? Or was it really just one big time? Or what like what's the what's the history?
Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, I had gone through the end of a significant relationship. And really, I think all of this is important because burnout. I don't think we can necessarily point a finger only at our jobs and say that's the sole source of burnout. I think it's a bigger... There are more pieces to the puzzle. So my relationship ended. I was changing jobs. And I actually ended up going through a significant personal trauma that was medical related. And it kind of coincided with me starting a new job. So because of what I went through in that trauma, I was not showing up as my best self at work. The impression I was leaving people with was somebody who was not reliable, could not show up for work, you know, was doing a good enough job.
But I look back on it now and think that definitely wasn't my best work. And when I tried to turn to leadership for help or to provide clarity of why I was showing up the way I was, I was not met with empathy. And I was, I would say bullied even in some scenarios and made to feel really small. And it was a really like kind of heartbreaking time for me. So I didn't feel like my boss cared about me at all, like as a human being. I'm just so curious.
Speaker 1: And we talked about our intentions before this. So I just, you know, I kind of want to repeat it just so that people listen, who are listening know that the intention is not to like shame people or call out any businesses or anything like that. But what did that... I want to know what that bullying looks like if you can give examples. Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. My so because I wasn't able to show up to work as regularly as I usually would, they extended my probationary period. So I was kind of put on watch and I had to be even, you know, it was even harder to kind of show up and be my best self.
I provided a ton of medical, I guess, evidence to show what I had been through without necessarily revealing this incredibly private thing that I had gone through. It didn't make a difference. They didn't change.
They didn't, you know, redact that extended probation. And it got to a point where I told my direct people leader and her leader the details of what had happened to me. And my my boss had said, Oh, I don't need to know that.
You don't need to tell me that. She really shot me down. The her boss was more empathetic, but I wouldn't say it changed anything in our relationship. Somebody else I worked with had been exited from the business. And the way I was told was very strange. I was pulled aside into a corridor, like a stairway and told, you know, this person has been let go.
Your job is safe as long as you're here and you're healthy. And it felt like a really veiled threat. The fact that I was in a space that nobody could see and my health was brought up in conjunction with this information. I really didn't know how to take it.
And, you know, other moments of bullying that were just very odd. I fixed a typo in a presentation one day. My boss didn't see the typo, but they saw me changing the presentation right before it was about to happen.
And hit me on the head with a pencil saying, you know, you don't do that. It was just very odd. It was very weird dynamic. Not something I would ever hope to repeat.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it is so strange because bullying doesn't always look like some big dude that puts you up against a corner and, you know, with his fist against your face or something like that, it's really subtle or it can be really subtle.
And in some ways, it's even more hurtful and more damaging when the bullying is it's almost like a feeling and not quite anything you can pinpoint because you start doubting yourself. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Is that? Yeah, it was a lot of microaggressions. It was a lot of, I think, denying someone's experience, really, you know. Not being believed, as we know, is a huge issue for anybody who's gone through anything. So not feeling, yeah, not feeling like you're believed or that you're showing up as a person of worth is really tough. And it was, yeah, it was definitely a lot of microaggressions that hold, you know, death by a thousand paper cuts kind of feeling.
Speaker 1: And when you think back on that experience and you imagine how you would have wanted to be treated. What does that look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, being now that I'm a people leader myself and I've had direct reports come to me with and share very personal things about their health or like their mental health and their overall well being. I all I try and do is treat them as a human being and just show up like a friend because ultimately nobody can come into an office or a remote office and do good work if they're not in a good place emotionally. And if they're not in a good place physically and mentally. So by taking care of each other, it really makes people better employees.
I see people being more motivated. So ultimately what I would have wished for or what I wish had happened was just for someone to say, I'm so sorry, you're going through that. Is there anything I can do? You know, we have medical leaves through our health care provider. Maybe that's something you want to explore right now. Maybe we can talk about you taking unpaid time off or, you know, an extended vacation so you can recuperate and come back and show up as your best self. And when somebody doesn't give you that permission and you feel like every day you have to show up to this place and you're you're at your lowest of the low point, it feels like an impossible task. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And in the very least, you know, being like, OK, what is the actual workload you can comfortably and reasonably accomplish in this during this time of your life? And how can we practically support you by maybe asking some of your colleagues to take on some of the workload for a short period of time or for whatever period of time? Like there's so many solutions that can be done. And it's like, absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, making accommodations for people, whether they have, whether they're differently abled or, you know, they have something personal going on is something that happens all the time at organizations everywhere. It's not, you know, in a unique situation. You know, being a boss is really a privilege and you have to care for other people, period.
And if you're not going to be that person and a lot of people end up in leadership roles who really it shocks me how much they don't seem to care about their teams.
Speaker 1: When did you decide that you needed to leave that position?
Speaker 2: Honestly, by the time I realized I needed to leave. I also recognized that I probably should have left about a year earlier. There was a lot of anger stewing inside of me because of the way everything had transpired.
And that's not naturally who I am as a person. I felt very resentful, very upset that nobody had stood up for me. And funnily enough, after I got a new job and put my notice in, a friend of my network had told one of the executive team members about kind of what I had been through. And they sat down and had a wonderful conversation with me and apologized for the way that everything had gone. So that was very nice.
But it did not change anything about for my boss. They were still there. They didn't face any repercussions. And I doubt they got any training like sensitivity training or anything else.
Speaker 1: When you were trying to decide whether or not you should leave, because I'm sure that it was a torturous decision for you. What was that like, like take me through a typical work day?
Speaker 2: I mean, really, it began with dreading work before getting to work. I don't feel like that now. So I think for anybody who's dreading work, that's a warning sign for me. You know, if you really don't want to show up there, then you have to start looking for your exit strategy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember when I was working at a corporate position, I was very, very burnt out. And it was almost like every single day, I would try to search inside myself for some reserve of energy or care for what I was doing, because my work ethic required me to invest. And it was at like the bottom of the barrel.
And I remember right when I decided that I was just, I was done and I just needed to quit. I got a raise like that day pretty much. I think it was like 40% increase in salary. Then I decided to stay for another year. But I think it was because they could sense that I was getting burnt out and they wanted to incentivize me to stay because I was valuable, because I was a workhorse, because I was genuinely doing like 70, 80 hour weeks. And we didn't get paid overtime.
Right. And I did that for years. I was like the only one in the office at like 5am. And on the weekends, I'd be there until, oh, it was insane.
I would, on the weekends, I would go in and I would work until like 2, 3am sometimes. Like, and nobody even noticed that I was there all the time because everyone had gone home. And nobody knew. And the people looking at my time sheets, because I don't know if people do still do time sheets, but they were the accountants.
And so they didn't have people training. I think partway through my time there, I was like, hey, guys, I think I need some time off. Like, I'm really tired. And they were like, what?
You just kind of like started not that long ago. And I was like, OK, well, I need to like show you my time sheets because I'm working like crazy. A partner of the company sat there and calculated my time sheets. And the number of overtime hours I had accrued over something like six months was in the triple digits.
Oh my God. It was insane. And nobody knew what to do. And so what ended up happening was they sat me down and just said, gosh, this should have never happened to begin with. It means that our system is wrong.
Right. But the system didn't change because I think that what they said was generally you would get an hour back for the hour of overtime that you put in. So it was like a honor system kind of thing. They're like, we can't give you your overtime back. So we'll give you a week vacation.
That's it. And during that week, I remember I was treading, going back to work so much the entire week that I was still so burnt out after the week because I was just not wanting to go back.
Speaker 2: When you're burnt out a week is never enough. You need at least three.
Speaker 1: Oh, when you're that burnt out, you not only need time, but you need solutions. Like if you come out of a dark tunnel for like a week, knowing that you have to get back in. It drains every ounce of recuperation that could have happened in that week. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: Hearing you say that really, really makes me think, you know, what are the practical things I've tried to take away from these situations? And one is just having like some red flags for yourself. So now, you know, if I worked that many hours, I would flag it immediately.
And if somebody didn't seem to care, red flag, red flag, get out of there. You know, what I see a lot in the creative realm that I work in is people not being recognized for what they're bringing to the table at the moment that they're hired. Companies tend to say, this is the role we have open. So if you're bringing more to the table than exactly what we're asking for and you're willing to settle for less, that's on you. And I also think that's a red flag.
Speaker 1: You're right. Work and your relationship to the people at your workplace and your work is a relationship. And so there should be red flags and there should be there should be dealbreakers in your job. And like getting into a long term relationship, we should know what those dealbreakers are and we should know what those red flags are. And we should know what we're worth. And we should also know where our weaknesses are. And we should know what our goals are in the relationship as well.
Absolutely. I do think in my earlier years, especially with that one corporate job that I was talking about, heart of the burnout came because I assumed that other people would acknowledge my effort. Or the fact that they didn't know I was working that late is not necessarily their fault. Because I wasn't telling them either.
Speaker 2: I think you're part of a large group of people who think, you know, at some point they're going to see everything I'm doing and I'm going to be rewarded. And that has not been my experience at all. I'll say just broadly across every job I've had. And now when I'm working with my direct leader, I keep an ongoing sheet of all of my accomplishments, everything that's been recognized by other people within the business. I am the biggest champion for my own work.
And you really have to be. I don't think you can count in this day and age with the amount of turnover that happens inside of organizations. And, you know, for the person who asked this question, if their boss ultimately doesn't think of them much as a human, then I think it's even harder to get that recognition. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think that I was so naive in a sense that I really believed in this meritocracy kind of system. But I don't think all workplaces are like that. I think ideally they would be. But we are responsible for our own boundaries as well. Sometimes we do need to manage our managers' expectations.
Absolutely. Because our managers, you know, should know and that's their job to know. But we're all also quite human and we have our own work. I think if I were to have gone back with the knowledge that I have now, I would have been like, hey, wait, I'm working too much. How do you want to deal with all of these things on my plate? We need to come up with a sustainable solution. We often think that giving our all to a job is like a gold star on the lapel.
Speaker 2: The star on the lapel made me think about something great a friend told me to help understand myself, but also other people at work. And that is for some people, it's a job. You know, they come in, they punch in at nine, they clock out at five and they go home. And their real life is what they really live for. It's not the job. For other people, it's a career.
Right? They want growth. They want to look back and say, you know, I accomplished something and that was significant. And I would put myself in that category. And for other people, it's a calling.
Right? What they're doing, they're out here trying to like make a difference. Change the world, change the industry, innovate, do something huge. So understanding somebody's motivations and how they show up to work, I think is really helpful. A great boss I had, this was one of the differences between them and I. For that person, it was a calling.
They were so passionate about the work. And it was a point of frustration for me sometimes because I felt, well, unless I show up the same way, I'm never going to be like good enough. You know, but ultimately, I don't want to care that much. I still want to get a great sleep, you know, and like have my weekends off. And I feel like they were so dedicated and so motivated by what they were doing that there were no true work hours. You know, they were just happy to put in time whenever they had time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tend to work like it's a calling. That hasn't always worked out for me because I've gone through years of burnout, especially after Beaucoup, actually. It was a passion. It was my entire life.
And I had just divorced my ex-husband when I started Beaucoup. So I was like, I need this to work on so many levels. And I want this to work because this is my life's dream. And so I think that that's such an amazing bit of information that you gave because had I known that at the time, I may have been a better writer. I think I started to understand it later because I remember giving someone the opportunity for advancement and they declined. And they said, you know, there's just a lot going on at home. Right. And I just want to clock in and clock out. And I was like, you do.
I support you 100% and just staying exactly where you are. But that was a big realization to me that her value in her job wasn't my value. In a moment, Kim and I talk about our tips for restarting Fresh. But first, a word from our nonprofit partner. In each episode, we feature a nonprofit chosen by a past guest. Today, Ruchika Tolshian has chosen to support Northwest Immigrant Rights Project.
We do this as a small thanks to them and to our community. For over 40 years, Northwest Immigrant Rights Project has defended and advanced the rights of immigrants in Washington state with offices in Seattle, Tacoma, Granger and Winochee. Northwest Immigrant Rights Project has over 100 full time staff members dedicated to providing direct legal services to low income immigrants and refugees to help them stay together with their families and seek out new opportunities in work, education and civic engagement.
You can learn more and donate by visiting nwip.org. Now back to our conversation. First of all, if I look at this question, you give your all. Okay, so that's one thing.
We'll talk about that in a bit. But the burnout part, it really is because we haven't created the boundaries to be able to live sustainably and work sustainably. But it's also a self worth thing. Feeling like you can't advocate for yourself.
Or it's even worse. It's a minority thing as well, where people feel like they really can't advocate for themselves. And so they have to burn out in order to prove their worth because there's no way for them to step up and advocate for themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think you made such a good point about, you know, it's not going to be the same scenario for everybody. And some people do have to make a case. And then I think because of our unconscious biases, that can come across as complaining sometimes. You know, I have heard, I have been told that when I've raised flags before that, you know, it sounds like you're complaining. And it's really tough because, you know, you're just trying to have a human conversation. But ultimately, it's because you're essentially speaking with a representative from an entity. It almost isn't human in that sense.
Speaker 1: The part of the question, you give your all. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Because I want to say don't.
Speaker 2: I want to say stop giving your all at work. I mean, it depends what your all looks like. I'm not saying don't put an effort. I'm I'm would put myself in the really hard worker category. I care a lot about the product I'm creating being strong and solid. And like, I want it, you know, I want to make work that I want my name attached to. And as a creative, you have a portfolio, right?
So you only want to put your best work out there in the world to say, you know, this is what I'm capable of. But yeah, I think historically, we've just been told that we're supposed to care so much about our jobs. And I hope that there's a shift, you know, we're putting our focus somewhere else. We're putting our focus on the collective and what's good for us. It worries me like I'm I picture in my head somebody who's like too busy to eat their lunch, putting in all the extra hours that you were putting in, trying to be the first person in the door, you know, at the beginning of the day, the last person to leave weekends, whatever, sacrificing really significant moments for your personal self and your personal life. And personally, I just think we need more balance. And I I try and work for companies whose values I admire for that reason, because I hope that they will inherently live that culture. It's not always the case, but I always hope for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think like I'm Gen X. So and very much influenced by the boomer generation where there's no such thing as you don't give your all, you give your all to your work, because that is what defines you. And now I'm like, even if it is my calling, I still get to eat. Like, even if it is my calling, I still have to go to the bathroom. Like, and I mean, I'm saying this a little bit to myself as an epiphany, because I think I'm burning out as a mom.
And I am giving my all because I don't know any other way to do something. And I'm having to undo this very hardwired, I guess, habit or I wouldn't call it a habit, actually. I probably call it a core story that I've been told that I need to do some research on and go, well, wait a second, how true is the story and how is the story working for me? And then write a new story. So I'm kind of currently doing that with my child. And I do have a bad habit of burning out because I care so much.
And I just don't want to not put everything that I have into something that I care so much about. But I do that with my work as well. And so I have like a high burnout rate. I think that there's this like searching for validation or people pleasing that causes or is one of the contributors to feeling like you need to give it all and feeling like you need to burn out because I think that sometimes my mentality, and I do have to do a little bit of digging here, my mentality is like, unless I burn out, it means that I didn't do a good job. Yeah. Because I didn't give it my all. It's different for everyone, but giving my all means I'm not going to bathroom.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it sounds like there's some reframing that maybe needs to happen where, you know, giving your all means consistently having the energy to give in every aspect of your life. So giving your all can actually mean balance. It means that you need energy in the tank to move forward.
Speaker 1: That is such good advice. That's going to change my life, I think. You'll have to let me know. Like I actually think that these little things will change my life. Like what does it look like to give your all when everything is healthy?
Speaker 2: If you know you always want to give your all, then you're always going to need energy. You're always going to need like the drive and the motivation. So how do you make sure that you always have the things you need to give your all?
And if you push past your limit and you don't have those things anymore, then that's when you need that time off. You know, I took a medical leave at a different workplace for a family reason. And I was received with so much love in that scenario. And I had so much anxiety over how I was going to be perceived in taking that time away. And it was so incredibly healing. I had eight weeks off of work.
It took me a month just to stop crying and just feeling like horrible in the situation that I was in. It felt so good to actually be able to come back to work restored.
Speaker 1: Also, as a business, just knowing that you're not going to be effective anyway. I bet you had way more loyalty to the business after that happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I would have liked to stay there longer had the opportunity been available. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it brings up the really the last part of the question of like, and your boss doesn't even care like this idea of like care. And I'm making an assumption here with the person who wrote in the fact that they included that as a note makes me think it was upsetting to them. And I'm so sorry that happened. And I hope it doesn't happen again. But I also think that's an opportunity for them to continue on and like interrogate the next person that hires them. Because if your boss doesn't have a level of care, then maybe that's not the place that you should be working. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I read the question, I almost read it with this sense of like, betrayal. Yeah. Like, they didn't even care, because this person put everything that they had into caring for their boss, essentially, or the company, and to not be cared for back reciprocally must have felt like a huge disappointment.
Speaker 2: But also, yeah, like a betrayal. And like heartbreak kind of comes up for me in a way too, because I think what you said earlier is so true. It is a relationship ultimately. So if you've entered into a relationship with someone and they're not meeting you at least halfway, that is heartbreaking in its own way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And imagine you break up with this in this relationship, you put everything you have into it, and you break up with them, and they actually don't care. Yeah. And I imagine it brings up questions of like, well, what was I worth then to them if they didn't even care? Or so I didn't go through this part, but I can imagine, just imagine how it would just destroy your sense of self worth again, even more so after that. Yeah. Did you ever have to go through that? Like, did your bosses care when you resigned?
Speaker 2: That job where I was burnt out? No, I don't think my boss cared. I think they were glad probably to see me leave because maybe I was a squeaky wheel in some ways that made their job harder. I actually did a lot of counseling around that first boss and that whole trauma that I experienced.
And my counselor at the time was so lovely. She said to me, this person might not have the capacity to care. And when we think about people like that, when we think this person was raised in a set of circumstances that I don't know anything about, like you said, we bring our parenthood dynamics to work sometimes, right?
So maybe they weren't brought up to care, I'm not sure. But once I realized they might not have the capacity to give me what I needed, it allowed me to ultimately offer some forgiveness for that situation. I don't know if I've entirely forgiven everything, but I do try. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the forgiveness part, I think, will hopefully come for the asker. But it does take time. And I don't think that it, like even now, I mean, it was 20 years ago. And I still sometimes think back and go, that is it. I still have a little bit of like, you just didn't even know what you lost in me, buddy.
I mean, obviously, it's not strong. Like, it feels like five lifetimes ago for me now. But I think that there is always a little bit of work to do around that forgiveness when you've suffered so much heartbreak. I guess this brings us to the last part of the question, which is how do you restart fresh?
Speaker 2: Yes. And this is what I wrote in when you posted the question, because I do think there's a solution. This is my personal opinion, but I say, get a layover job, get a stepping stone job. If you're truly burnt out the way that I was burnt out, I needed to go somewhere that I hate to say it. I didn't hear that much about it, or how I particularly showed up. I needed somewhere I could go to recharge my batteries and remember that I was a good person, a hard worker, and really good at what I did. And I knew that I wasn't going to stay there very long. So I didn't get attached to it. I didn't get super attached to what people thought of me the way I have in other workplaces. It was really healing for me, actually. It really let me remember that, oh, no, I know who I am and I know what I'm doing, and I'm going to continue on from this and have a great career.
Speaker 1: Basically, you got a rebound.
Speaker 2: I did. It was totally a rebound. Yeah, absolutely. And if it's a relationship and we do that romantically, why wouldn't we do it with work?
Speaker 1: And they can be so healing, too. They don't have to be the notebook, like love until death, to be in that moment the right thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the summer fling of work.
Speaker 1: You're like, this is a little bad, but you're really cute right now. And I kind of just need simple. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I hope more people do it. I've definitely recommended it to more than a few people and get people can come out of burnout in a place where maybe they don't necessarily care about the product that's being sold or the industry, but they understand that that office or that workplace has a phenomenal culture. And they can make friends and they can build relationships and they can get their confidence back and then go forth onto the next big thing. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can get their groove back. Well, what about those people that are in relationships and afterwards? I'm just going on this relationship thing. People afterwards are so heartbroken that they cannot even imagine themselves even going into a rebound. And I imagine that for some people coming out of a job like this, they just wouldn't even want a rebound job. What would you say to them?
Speaker 2: I want to say do it anyway. Sometimes you don't know something's good for you until you've been forced into it in a way. Forced is maybe the wrong word, but a friend has given you a gentle shove towards, if I think about myself, if we're doing this relationship metaphor, you've broken up with someone, you're single, you're heartbroken, your friend says, oh my god, have you met Dave? Dave's really, he's cute, he's funny, you guys aren't going to last together, but he's just going to make you laugh. Then hang out with Dave, let this job be your Dave. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And if you can financially support yourself afterwards to take a long break, yeah, by all means, but most people don't have that luxury. And so you got to eat. So you maybe just find a Dave.
Speaker 2: For sure. And maybe if we think about you and your career being a calling, this is a moment to scale it back and be like, what does it look like when I'm working and it's not a calling? What does it look like when it's a career? Or if it's me, I scaled back and said, this is a job.
I'm not invested the way that I would usually be invested and that's okay. It doesn't mean I do bad work. It doesn't mean I'm rude to my new colleagues. It just means that I'm not giving my all here and that's totally fine.
Speaker 1: How does one find love again? And if we're going to carry this metaphor through, restarting fresh doesn't just mean I have a Dave job now. It means how do I find that inspiration again? How do I rediscover who I am again in the context of work? How do I reinvent myself and find work that does care about me or that makes me feel valued and worthy? How does one go and find a long-term relationship again after a breakup?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is such a great question. I think this is a know-thyself moment when I was looking to leave this bad job. My counselor said, why don't we do this thing called a strong interest inventory? And it basically just measures what you're interested in. It has nothing to do with careers specifically.
So things that came up for me that were very obvious to the jobs I was already doing were communications and media. I also love to travel. I also love being outside. I like beautiful things. Some of the suggested careers that popped out at the end of doing this interest inventory were flight attendant, florist, photographer.
Things that were creative involved with exploring had to do with nature, those kinds of things. So I'd say step back, take a moment, think about what you love in life outside of the context of work. And how can you bring your love of life into what you want to do in your career? And is there a path you can follow there? I mean, ultimately, that's what you did, right, when you opened Beaucoup?
Speaker 1: Right before I opened Beaucoup, I had my own design business. And I think that for me, it wasn't so much of burnout that caused that shift. I'm just trying to remember because it was so long ago. And I wrote a book about it so you'd think I would remember. I read it.
It was great. Oh, thanks for reading the book. I'm always so happy when people say they've read it because you do things in a silo and you don't really realize it's not like everyone that reads the book, I get a ping that tells me. So I just think, has anyone read it? Like, I don't even know if my mom's read it anyway. Oh, we got so good.
Speaker 2: Actually, I remember something significant from your book that I think about every time I go into a pettisserie, which is the humidity, the location, all of these things can shift how a croissant turns out. I had no idea. So one of my favorite pettisseries move locations and the croissants just aren't quite the same, not like worse or anything. But yeah, I remembered that from your book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're finicky little buggers, which is why I never make them anymore. Do you know what the most common assumption is when people find out that I was the owner?
Is they're like, oh my gosh, your husband's so lucky probably gets freshly baked croissant all the time. And I'm like, I don't even remember the last time I cooked a meal, because I just got so burnt out by food that I actually stopped like tasting it because it was my work, it was my life. And oh gosh, anyway, talk about burnt out again.
But yeah, it was so funny. People are like, man, you must bake those every Sunday morning. I'm like, first of all, they take three days from start to finish. So like, no, they can bake in these on Sunday morning. Okay.
Speaker 2: I feel the same. The same thing happened to me with writing, people would say, or you know, you'd get these suggestions like, oh, you should journal journaling really helps you. I'm like, I write all day and I look at other people's words all day for work. I can't look at words anymore. I don't want to put a pen to paper. I don't want to write something for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: If you want to not do something, do it for work. Totally. And really, I mean, I do love what I do. Like that's, I'm in a very fortunate position to always choose things that I love to do. But I choose them so much more carefully now, because I know that if I choose it for work, it might mean that I never do that thing anymore. Totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That is such a great point. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like if you were to give this ask or any advice at all to their question, what would it be?
Speaker 2: I'm going to go off on a slight tangent here, I feel, but I'm going to say stop drinking for now. Maybe it's not alcohol, but if you have a vice that puts you in a downward spiral kind of cycle, I would say try and be really conscious about that and see if there's something that you can eliminate whatever you can do to care for yourself in a really significant way. And stop one of your patterns in its path.
If that's not a helpful pattern, that would be great. I think we also put a lot of pressure on ourselves to have this like fresh start feeling of like, I need to get over it, I need to feel joy, I need to feel liberated from leaving this behind. Maybe you might not feel that way. Maybe you might be mourning, you might be in grief over what you just went through.
There's no one right way to feel. Just remember the things that you love and try and do more of them. Try and break up with work as a concept maybe for a little while.
Like you said, if you can take time off, take time off. Otherwise, maybe you like bouldering, like go bouldering, maybe you like food, go eat something incredible. Just do something that's actually going to light you up and not bring you down.
Speaker 1: Also, I keep thinking of other times I've been burnt out. I think there needs to be this letting go at some point of that like pressure to do something else or be something else or pressure at all, pressure period.
Just get rid of the pressure because that I think will slow down the healing process because so much of the healing isn't about what's coming next, what's coming next. It's about, okay, what just happened when my feeling in this present moment, what is happening for me right now and focusing on the right now as trite and whatever it sounds, the present moment, but it's true. Whatever happens later will just happen later. Right now, it's about healing and it's about being good to yourself. It's about figuring out what you're worth, figuring out who you are and what you bring to the table and what you want your job to bring to the table for you. All these self-inquiry things that I do really believe that therapy helps with.
Speaker 2: I also, on this idea of starting fresh, I'd say take some informational interviews. This was a big thing when you're just starting your career that you just go out and meet people for coffee and learn what they're doing and yada yada. If you're interested in an industry or you've always admired or even envied somebody else's career, maybe just ask that person to hang out, grab a bite, grab a coffee, see if something comes of it. I think people would be shocked how much career growth can come out of just networking and being curious. I feel like almost all the roles I've had have been because somebody recommended me.
Speaker 1: I remember I was really inspired by the Four Seasons Hotel, all the little things that they've actually created in their history. You know how you have mini shampoos and soaps? Yes. That was actually created by the Four Seasons. Oh my god.
Gyms in hotels, Four Seasons. I was so inspired by this that I had read the, I think it was a biography, not an autobiography of the founder, Isadora Sharpe. I actually wrote him a letter, like a fan letter, being like, you are the epitome of ingenuity. I don't even remember exactly what I wrote, but he actually responded. Amazing. It does go to show if you are really wanting to know about something, just go out and try. Who knows? Also, I didn't even know his email.
I just learned, I googled and I learned all the email conventions. I just was like, it's probably this. That was one of my bolder moments, but what did I have to lose?
Absolutely nothing. Absolutely. This has been such a great conversation and I do hope that the asker gets something out of this, but there were some great moments. I just want to thank you so much for sharing and being so wise and changing my life essentially.
Speaker 2: Anything I can do to help. I'm so happy to have been here with you. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Dear fresh start.
Speaker 1: When I think back to the time in my life where I was a young designer, desperately trying to prove myself, prove my worth through my work, feeling lost and trying to find a place for myself through accomplishments and accolades, occurring not triple digit overtime hours, as I mistakenly remembered in the interview, but actually triple digit overtime days, I wish I could go back and share with her some of the same wisdom that was shared today. Things like you have to be your biggest advocate and be confident with drawing boundaries that work for you or giving your all means giving to all parts of your life, or don't give it your all. Give yourself your all. I wish I could have gifted this wisdom to my younger self, but in all honesty, I actually need this advice now as much as I did 20 something years ago. Dear fresh start, exploring your question has made me rethink this cycle I have of giving my all to my work and then burning out completely over and over again over the years.
I've worked myself to the bone and then eight. I tend to dive in so wholeheartedly for so long, blinded by my desire for something that I inevitably drown in all of it. And your question prompted me to see that I'm still trying to prove myself, albeit a little less desperately, but I'm still feeling lost, still trying to find a place to belong in a crowded room, still trying to make space for myself with a title or an accolade with external validation, just something that can be written in black and white on a piece of paper that says you're worthy. And though I thought I had somewhat separated my self worth from my work over the years, even to the point of rejecting my titles altogether, deep down, there's still a part of me that feels like I need to prove that I'm worthy of being seen, of being loved, safe. And I've done this with everything I've cared about in my life, not just work. Whether it's a passion I have, or finding a partner in life, funny enough, I was even so focused on healing myself that I burnt out from positivity and self care for a certain period of time. And now I full well know that I'm in the midst of replaying this pattern with motherhood.
In some ways, I assumed that maybe this was just me. I get really passionate, I get really obsessed about things that I love. But now that burnout is really not an option, especially not for motherhood, I have no choice but to dig deeper, to question my motives. What is this desire I have?
What is this something? Why do I do this? What am I getting out of it deep down, even unconsciously?
On the other hand, there is this inspired part of me fueled by curiosity, one that spawns a life giving passion. But at what point does this turn into destructive suffocation? And how?
And why? Dear Fresh Start, I write about this because I think being curious about why we give our all, why we allow ourselves to get to the point of burnout is one important key to restarting fresh. It's hard to feel hopeful about the future if the future is shrouded in fear of being hurt again.
And mustering the energy and courage to restart only to find yourself in the same pattern will only wear away at us more and more. And though we really can't predict what challenges will come, and we can't dictate how others will treat us, but we do have control over how we approach these challenges, where we choose to give, how much we choose to give, and how we define our worth in the midst of it all. Knowing our worth can come from listening carefully to those old stories kicking around in our bodies, dismantling them, and writing new ones that work better for us now as who we are now. For me, I think I've understandably placed so much of my worth on external validation because as a very young child, I already believed I was a failure. It seemed that every measure of what could make my family proud, good grades, math skills, playing instruments, whatever, well, whatever it was, I fell painfully short. I constantly felt like a disappointment to my parents, and I remember it weighing so heavily on me.
This poor little girl believed that she could never be loved without working harder, longer, giving it her all. And I did all of that over and over again until now, because subconsciously, deep down inside, maybe I just didn't want to fail. I didn't want to fail at being worthy of love. I kept at it, even ignoring all my past accomplishments, striving for more and more, because feeling worthy can never really be accomplished.
Feeling worthy comes by just accepting that you are. My dear fresh start, I'm not sure what your old story is. That was mine. And as for what to do with it, I think I'm going to choose to honor it, respect it. It has played and is still playing a pivotal part in teaching me deeply about worth. But now, I want to start writing a new story. Maybe the story will be about accepting my worth, allowing it, instead of constantly working to prove it. Maybe this new story will feel relaxed, fun, exciting, inspiring, energizing, easy even.
And if it isn't, maybe that's a sign for me to get curious about whether my worth is sitting outside of me or sitting securely inside of me. As for restarting fresh, I do hope, genuinely, that you get some time to recuperate, that you get time to mourn, to get angry, and to forgive. Whatever that looks like for you, I hope you do treat yourself very well. And I hope that you surround yourself with people that love you. And then one day, when you start to feel ready, when you get a little bit of inspiration, I hope you take a moment to honor your old story and then write a fresh new one that works for you. Thank you so much, Kim, for being our guest and for being so generous with your wisdom and personal stories.
Fresh start, I hope you got something helpful out of this. If anything, just know that you're not alone. You see, we all struggle. We all mourn. We all yearn, question, laugh, and cry. No matter our age, background, or titles, at our core, we're all not so different.
You and I. So for the next couple of months, I'll be focused on writing my upcoming book, To You Who Wonders. It's an advice column meets memoir. To make some space for that, I'm going to be recording words from my past advice column, AskJKE, which I wrote for Vitruvi's magazine, Natural Habitat. You know, it's been a few years since I wrote them. Some advice, I think, is timeless.
I'm really curious as to how my advice would be different now. So in these episodes, I'll read out the column and also share my reflections, what's evolved, what would I have written differently, or what was I experiencing at the time I wrote it. I really hope you tune in and enjoy the AskJKE series. Thank you again for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe to our channel, which helps others who might be interested find us. And feel free to share this episode with someone who may find it helpful as well. I'm Jackie Kai Ellis, and here are some words of wisdom.
Speaker 3: Here, asker, I think the answer lies within you already. You said it yourself, you gave it all. When I hear this, the first thing that comes to my mind is that you are a dedicated person and a hard worker, which are two really strong qualities.
These qualities are very valuable for most employers, but also for people who decide to pursue their own project. If your boss didn't see it, others will. Remember that there can be hundreds of reasons why your boss seemed not to care. And I insist on the same because only your boss knows how he or she really felt about the situation.
Maybe your boss wasn't happy to lose an employee and just pretended that he or she didn't care. You will never know for sure. But the question is, should it matter anyway? Why giving so much importance to someone who doesn't care? If you were the boss, would you treat one of your own loyal employee like this? If not, why would you value your boss's opinion so much? So my word of wisdom to you would be that if you are the type of person for whom to give it all comes naturally, then don't give it all to the boss or to a company. Give it all for yourself first. Give it all for the person you are. Give it all for your dreams, for who you aspire to be. Give your time and love to your loved ones for the things that brings you up, not the things that brings you down. Remember to be gentle to yourself and to give yourself credit for your achievements, whether big or small. Leave the past behind and look at the future. You can't control how others are seeing you, but you have control on who you want to be and on how you want to plan your next journey. Just remember, others' opinions do not define you. We do not know each other, but I wish you all the best.